Jun 24, 2022

A Chat About Chatbots

Will Francis photo

byWill Francis

Posted on Jun 24, 2022

Ever considered how your business might benefit from using chat marketing? In this episode, host Will Francis meets Anna Tutckaia, head of marketing at ManyChat, to learn about where this fast-developing form of marketing is helping brands and customers. By building a chat platform on Facebook, Messenger or Instagram, you are essentially meeting your customers where they already are.  

A Chat About Chatbots

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Episode Transcript

Will: Welcome to "Ahead of the Game," a podcast brought to you by the Digital Marketing Institute. I'm your host, Will Francis, and today I'll be talking to Anna Tutckaia, all about ChatBots and what they can do for your digital marketing. Anna is Head of Digital Marketing at ManyChat, one of the world's leading chat marketing platforms which some of you no doubt use. She's a self-made marketing success story herself, too. So we'll talk about that later, how she learned, progressed, succeeded in marketing and in Silicon Valley. Anna, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on.

Anna: Hi, Will. Thanks a lot for having me here.

Will: It's a pleasure actually because, you know, ManyChat is a tool that I think a lot of our listeners will have used or experimented with in their own marketing. Is it the biggest provider of embedded chat functionality? I know it's one of the biggest, but where does it sort of sit in there?

Anna: I would say ManyChat is the biggest provider of chat marketing platforms. We have over 2 million businesses on the platform who basically build automation on platforms like Messenger, Instagram, SMS, and email.

Will: So, I'm really interested in the way that brands communicate with customers has changed. Of course, we saw digital media, then social media, and then we're seeing this more conversational thing happening. Where are we at with that? Like, what's happening there? And where do you think it's headed just as a way to kind of set the scene in this way that this communication between brands and consumers is changing?

Anna: Yeah, sure. So, first of all, I want to start, you know, with the customers, right? With ourselves, and try to pause here for a moment and ask your listeners a question. Where do you spend the most time, you know, when you are on your phone? Most likely a lot of the time you spend on the messenger platforms, right? Whether you are texting with your friends or you are on social media and you are texting through Facebook Messenger or Instagram DMs, or WhatsApp, right? But then, once you get to interact with the business, a lot of businesses force you to either email them or call them when you have any questions or when you have some challenges you need to resolve. And that's exactly what we are trying to solve with ManyChat, and what we're solving pretty successfully with ManyChat, by enabling a lot of businesses to communicate with their customers through platforms where the customers are. Through Messenger, SMS, Instagram, and WhatsApp. And on top of it, we also enable businesses to use automation so they basically have more time to focus what they do the best versus, you know, constantly responding to customer requests.

Will: But do customers feel like they're in some sort of automated, you know, like in the old world, you'd be on the telephone, "Press five to speak to, and then press one to speak to," and all these kind of menus. Do you think people feel like they're caught in an automated system or have you kind of cracked making it feel a bit more human, even though it's automated?

Anna: It's a really good question. In fact, there were studies that showed that people prefer interacting with a bot more than interacting with a real human. But the thing is they need to understand that they are interacting with a bot. So they want to know. And I always say that human, like, one on one connection, like, communication is not going away. It's always a place, you know, for one on one conversation. But what you can do through automation is to get rid of questions, repeatable questions that can easily be automated, right? A lot of FAQs. And on top of that, you can also communicate to the customers and their requests when are you going to get back to them on this, you know, one-on-one, communication, when your next, you know, customer success rep is going to be available. And then by the time your customer success rep is available, there is also some qualification, you know, has been done. Some questions have already been answered and they know what they're going to talk about. So, a lot of time is saved right there.

Will: Right. Okay. Yeah. I understand that actually. I think in a way when you're talking to a bot, you feel like you are more in control because you are not at the whim of some human, maybe quite unpredictable agent at the other end. You feel like you are just kind of in control in a funny sort of way.

Anna: And you don't need to be nice, you know. Like, for some people there is an extra stress to, like, talking to other human being. Like, we are talking to everyone all the time, you know, especially now with social media. So, when, like, you can have your question answered, you know, quickly and without interacting with someone else, I think it's something you would prefer.

Will: Yeah, no, I agree. I broke down in my car yesterday.

Anna: Oh no.

Anna: And I was ringing the recovery service, and it came to a point where I felt like I was kind of trying to manipulate them into getting them to do what I wanted them to do. You know, you were trying to give off all the right cues like I'm a nice guy, you know, I'm a good customer, and you're not saying these things, but you're trying to...you catch yourself trying to get the most out of them by just getting them to like you and care about you.

Anna: Exactly.

Will: Which is crazy. It's an insane game that you play sometimes when you are a customer having customer service. So, yeah, I do understand that the clarity with a bot is... At least you know where you stand, right? So, that's interesting. So, you automate the conversations, and then presumably it kind of integrates with marketing automation and that's kind of really grown, that's exploded in recent years. What's going on there with the kind of wider marketing automation thing?

Anna: Yeah. Marketing automation is the whole another layer. And it really depends, on, you know, your business, it really depends on your customers and what platforms you are at. But the latest, I would say the most interesting one is Instagram automation. Because a lot of businesses use Instagram for their customer acquisition, right? To connect with their customers, to constantly generate new content, and get closer to them. So, a lot of things, a lot of cool things could be done through automation. So, we launched it last year in September. We are official Meta business partners. And basically previous to that, there were a lot of, you know, companies who were trying to hack it, and their accounts were blocked and there is a lot of negative connotation around that. So we were extremely happy when Meta opened their APIs and we could finally build, you know, a good legit product on top of it.

Will: Wow. That sounds cool. What does that actually do in practice? What does it look like?

Anna: Yeah. So, first of all, going back to automating your DMs, right? I know that a lot of businesses receive, I don't know, over 100 direct messages on their Instagram account, and in order, you know, they want to get responses fast as possible. So you can totally automate it, you can have way more time, you know, open up for your business. That's the first thing. The second thing is you can run a lot of campaigns to increase your product sales. So, you can basically... Let me think. You can come up with a lot of different quizzes, you know, on your Instagram lives or on your Instagram stories where you would ask folks, you know, what they prefer in terms of, like, the type of clothing. Let's say, if you are an e-commerce brands, what colors do they prefer? What are they planning to purchase for the next father's day, like, it's coming, you know, for the U.S.? And once you know different segments of the customers by their answers, you can say, now you can DM me the word father's day and send all the details of the promotion, you know, in their DMS, through automation.

And the cool thing about it, yeah, you actually see who of your audience is interested, you know, in this promotion or in this campaign. And you can also follow up with them within 24 hours and ask them like, "Hey, did you have a chance to actually go back to the website and purchase?" Or, "Hey, like, do you have any questions so I can answer in regards to the campaign?" So, it's basically free retargeting ad right there.

Will: Okay. Wow. That's really interesting. Yeah. Because, I mean, I suppose I was getting at the more classic marketing automation stuff of just passing data into other systems, you know, into CRM systems and things like that automatically, but that's something that I never would've thought of. That is quite interesting.

Anna: I'm glad actually you brought passing data because that's a huge one. Like, with iOS 14 changes, I'm sure you know it's a huge, huge bummer for a lot of marketers, right? It's very hard to remarket now, it's very hard to track audience, to understand, like, what are the channels the most effective ones? So, with ManyChat and with automation, you can actually generate leads so you can, you know, figure out what are the people's first names, last names, emails, and you can host it all in ManyChat and then see what campaigns they, you know, participate in, like, with products they're interested in. So that's a huge part. And then you can also track the performance. You know, there are conversions on the platforms as well. So, I feel like it's quite unique and very important these days.

Will: Well, that's it, isn't it? And with the deprecation of third-party cookies, we've done quite a few podcasts and webinars and what have you about first-party data about the importance of marketers getting their own data, rather than relying on the big tech companies because we don't know where we're gonna stand with that. So, is ManyChat a way, well, it's clearly a way of gathering that data, right? You can ask people for their shoe size in their email address and whatever you want, I suppose, and store that and base your future communication on that. Right?

Anna: Absolutely. Yeah. So, normally you would, let's say you are on Instagram or you are on Messenger, or you are on, like, Facebook ad, right? That you run to acquire new customers. And what you normally do is send traffic to the landing page. And we know that the conversion rate there, like 5% is a good conversion rate, right? So, you lose 95% of people. And you, like now with iOS 14 changes, like, very often, you can't even retarget to them. So, on ManyChat, instead of sending them directly to the landing page, you can offer something to them of their value like an ebook or a coupon code they can use to redeem, you know, when they purchase on your website. And then you can say same thing again, like, "DM me the word ebook." Once they DM the word ebook, you send the information about the campaign or promotion on their direct messages and you ask for their contact information to send further details. So, they basically fill it out, very often it is already prefilled by Instagram. You just need to, you know, click on the prefill button and you basically store everything within, like, ManyChat system.

Will: Where do you think this kind of conversational marketing is going? What does the future look like?

Anna: It's hard to say, right? Because different markets adapt differently globally, but I envision it when you get to any business, you know, website and you have a question or you get on their social media, you click on the button and then, like, it asks you, where do you want to chat, you know, where do you want to chat with the business? And you choose the channel that you prefer, let's say WhatsApp, right? Or messenger. And then you have all this communication, you know, on one platform, there are no waiting lines. When you call businesses you don't need to hold, you know, to the web chat and to save, you know, the step open while you are figuring out customer success issues. So, it's all on your phone, it's all on your preferred channel, and it's going to be... It is actually very easy for businesses right now. They can just go ahead start using multiple platforms that are available, like, including ManyChat, and provide this for their customers.

Will: Hello, a quick reminder from me that if you're enjoying our podcast series, why not become a member of the DMI so that you can enjoy loads more content from webinars and case studies to toolkits and more real-life insights from the world of digital marketing? Head to digitalmarketinginstitute.com/aheadofthegame to sign up for free. Now back to the podcast. So, if our listeners are keen to get started with this kind of conversational marketing, what immediate advice do you have for them?

Anna: Let me start with the basics because I feel like it's very important and I chat with a lot of businesses and not everyone has it. The first one is, understand your audience. That's the big one, right? You need to understand your audience. You need to understand their pain points. You want to make sure you understand how your product helps to fix, you know, these pain points or address these pain points. And then lastly, you need to figure out if you know where your audience hang out, right? Whether they are on social media platforms, whether they are, you know, on different types of blogs. So, do that homework. It's crucial. It's important. So, the second part is, imagine you understand your, you know, acquisition channels. Like, you have your social media channels set, good content there, just go to, you know, and you decide that you want to use chat marketing. You need to get into chat marketing either, you know, to optimize your ads. Another thing by the way, we didn't talk about like, how can you improve your ads performance through automation, but that's a whole another conversation we can jump in later.

But if you want to learn how to do that, get to manychat.com website, find our free video course. It's free. It's very straightforward. You know, within, I would say one or two days, if you dedicate time going through it, you'll learn a ton. Like, you'll understand how can you use the automation? How can you use the platform? Just go ahead, do that. Number three, go ahead, sign up and register. And I can also offer you, you know, free one-month coupon, you know, to try the product for free and to experiment, do that. And lastly experiment, because marketing is all about testing, right? Marketing is all about trials and errors. So, go ahead, launch your first campaign and see what results it's getting you, right? If it doesn't work the way you plan to, like, try out other things, you know, because it's never the first, you know, the first try, right? It's always, like, launching, iterating, improving, launching again. Like, that's the approach I have.

Will: I mean, what are the things that you can test? If that's not a silly question. What are the variables with putting chat into your, you know, putting an automated bot into your social media?

Anna: Yeah, the first one I would do is if you run, let's say, direct response ads, right? Try out click-to Messenger ads and see if they perform better. Click-to Messenger Ads is basically instead of driving traffic to the landing page, you drive traffic to direct messenger, where you can communicate, you know, to your customer. And there you can filter out if this customer is the right customer for you, you can filter out by asking different questions, what would be the right content to offer, you know, to this customer. So, personalization is right there. Then you can offer this content and then you can follow up if they enjoy this content and if they want to proceed forward, you know, with the brand. So, you can't do it within the landing page. Like, that's, like, the whole beauty of automation. So, I would say that's the first thing I would do.

The second thing is if let's say you are big on organic social, right? And you are on Instagram, you have a lot of followers, you have a lot of content and you have a lot of direct messages. Then I would connect your Instagram to ManyChat Instagram automation and create, like, using the template that we will offer in product. Very easy FAQ automation series, where your customers by asking, you know, a question, a certain keyword would be triggered, they would receive the answer. And then once you are done with the answer, the beauty of it, you can also send your conversation or send your follower, like, to your latest product offer or to your latest content that you wrote and you want your followers to listen. So, you can close all the conversations with, like, the content piece that you want them to see. So, that would be, like, the second one.

And I would say, it's just so many ways you can go around it. The third one is probably automate very simple interactions of your customer with a brand let's say on Instagram again, when they comment, right.? Or when they tag you in their stories, right? You can automate it and you can send them a thank you message, right? Thank you for posting this comment. Thank you for mentioning me in your stories. Like, here is a little, you know, something for you I can offer, you know, just because I appreciate you as a customer. And then, first of all, you'll have way more happy customers, way more happy followers. And then also the platform itself, Instagram would see your increased engagement, and you will be shown, you know, your content will be shown way better, like, for others.

Will: So, should I just stop pointing traffic to landing pages?

Anna: It really depends on your product. If it's a simple product, you can even sell directly through messengers. So you can do it right there. If let's say there are way more products, right? That you want your customers to see, then you can qualify them and send to very specific pages that would be relevant. So, you would decrease the number of steps they take before the transaction happened. But I don't have a very specific yes or no answer. What is very important is you should definitely experiment with this and see what works better for your customer.

Will: Well, that brings me on to another question. What types of businesses do you find that conversational marketing works particularly well for?

Anna: A lot. The first one that I keep everyone, yeah. The first one that I keep bringing up is e-commerce. If you're e-commerce business and you don't use automation, I'd rather, you know, maybe pause right there and go check it out. Because e-commerce get a lot of, a lot of positive, benefits, you know, out of it. The second one would be [inaudible 00:21:39]. You know, if you're selling your courses or your services online, like, that's another huge one. Then local businesses like restaurants, beauty salons, car dealerships get a lot of benefit too. So travel industry. Like, we have, as I already mentioned, like over 2 million businesses and a lot of them are seeing a value and use product differently.

Will: So, you look after marketing there. Are you focusing on trying to drive growth in particular industries?

Anna: It depends. So, sometimes it's a blended focus, sometimes a marketing team. Like, my marketing team would focus on, like, specific industries like e-commerce this quarter, let's say, that's why I'm talking a lot about it. But yeah, it's a blended approach.

Will: Yeah. Just, yeah, I get that. I suppose I asked that question in case you thought there was an industry that was particularly slow to adopt this, but actually could get a lot out of it or anything like that. But I think it is quite, like you say, quite generally applicable product and set of methods, right?

Anna: Yeah. It's like everyone is on Instagram. Like, can you imagine any industry that is not on Instagram? Yeah. If let's say you have, I don't know. You're a business that have very limited amount of customers that you don't interact with often, then maybe that's not the product for you. If you have a lot of customers, if you're active on social, if you're on ads, that's definitely something to check out.

Will: That's cool. I think that's good about chat. I wanna talk about influences.

Anna: I think my interest in overall creator's economy happened once we introduced Instagram automation. And my thinking process was okay, like, Instagram automation, Instagram means influencers. Like, how can we A, serve them better? Right. And B, how can we partner with them so they help spread the word. And we started, you know, reaching out to a handful of influencers. We learned that a lot of our users were already influencers. So, that's, like, the first learning curve that I had is, first look at your customer base and see what you can do right there, because they're already there. They use the product, right? And then we saw a lot of benefit, like, within this handful of influencers and we started growing the channel.

Will: So, you think influencers themselves could use ManyChat.

Anna: Yeah. First of all, influencers themselves could use ManyChat, they use ManyChat a lot.

Will: How? Automating kind of responses to replies and that kind of thing, I suppose, like engagement?

Anna: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or a lot of influencers, they sell their courses or they sell their paid webinars and it's always like, "Hey, DM me the word to get information about the webinar." And then everyone DMs them. They can filter out again by who is interested. They can qualify them, get their contact information and then send where they can register and where they can pay. I would say that's the biggest for influencers.

Will: Yes. And I suppose, but then brands can use it for influencer marketing, right?

Anna: Brands for influencer marketing, the one way I can see they can use it is through story mentions. So, when some of the influencers, especially nano influencers, you know, mention, like, brands in a story, they can always thank them, they can follow up with them and they can also keep track, you know, of those.

Will: Yeah. Opens a conversation with them because we're seeing so many brands... yeah, I didn't quite see this coming, but in the last year or two, we've seen so many brands use more and more UGC from nano influencers all the way through to full-on mega influences and you never quite know which it's gonna be. And it's a total mix and of course, good practices to ask people if we can use their image. So, I suppose you could automate every time someone says they came to your restaurant chain, you could have an automated response saying, "Oh, this is great. Could we possibly use this image or something in a future post?"

Anna: Or another cool thing you can do, you know, when a lot of brands use it to build their ambassador program, which is kind of similar to influencer program. If when someone tags their brand, they say, like, "Hey, thank you for tagging." And then they try to segment them out by say, how many followers do you have on your account? And then if it qualifies them, then they also offer them to become their brand ambassador. Like, do you want to become a brand ambassador? Like here are, you know, the rules of the program. So stuff like that.

Will: Yeah. Yeah. So, that's interesting. That's all good. I'm interested to hear about how did you end up at ManyChat? What interested you about working there? How did you kind of, you know, how did your career trajectory end up there?

Anna: It's a good question. So, I've been in marketing for the last decade, like, here in Silicon Valley U.S. helping a lot of tech startups grow. And at one point I think in 2015 or '16, I learned about ManyChat myself and I started using it kind of similarly to marketers would use email marketing, but I would do the same thing on Messenger. And on Messenger, you would get better open rates, better click-through rates. So I loved the product, it was extremely effective. So, I then launched my digital marketing agency and hopped through, you know, a couple of companies, but then ManyChat reached out and they asked to have their marketing, you know, to boost their growth. And I was very honored and excited because I love the product myself. And as marketers, I'm sure everyone wants to market products that they believe in. So that was definitely a yes for me.

Will: And have you worked on products quite a lot in your career?

Anna: Oh, mostly software products like ManyChat. I was also at e-commerce, not e-commerce but technology like biotech brand where we did devices for posture and for running it's called Lumo BodyTech. I went to straighten up my posture when I say that. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. So my goal there was to grow their direct-to-consumer business that sold through Shopify and Amazon.

Will: I'm just interested what, because you've worked in Silicon Valley doing marketing for these products. I think you've learned probably some really interesting things along the way. And I'd love to pass that on to our listeners. Like, what are the biggest lessons? What were the biggest surprises to you in that journey that you learned along that way?

Anna: It's a really good question. Again, like, I really want to get back to basics because you can't be surprised, like, not everyone understands the product value and the audience's needs. When I start working with brands, I always have this question is like, do you know your audience? And a lot of brands say, "Oh, it's everybody." And that's not always the case, right? You really need to understand, especially when you start at smaller scale, you want to focus, you want to niche down and you want your messaging, you know, reflect your audience and be exact the way they talk. So they understand you when they see you on your ads or on the landing page or other marketing material. So, that's the first one.

The second one is I would say when you're growing a brand being very strategic and think of long-term efficient user acquisition channels versus short-term gains. So for example, ads, right? Ads, especially later in the days, it used to be a vending machine, right? You put the dollar in, you get $4 out and you get your customers. Amazing. Like, everyone is happy. But really you don't want to play this game, you know, for a very long time or you don't want to be solely reliant on that, right? So, thinking strategically, what are the long-term channels you can, spend time building that would enable your growth later on. So, building out your community, right? Building out content for SEO. Building out relationships with non-competitive brands so you can run some marketing campaigns together and tap into each other's audiences, and, like, building out partnerships with influencers. So, don't rely solely on that. That's what I'm trying to say here, I guess.

Will: Yeah. Because you're right. Once you turn that vending machine off, you're just totally invisible, right?

Anna: Exactly. Like, you need to have these basics. So, I would say that, and lastly, I already mentioned community at my previous, right, comment, but community is crucial. Like, you need to be there for your customers. You need to constantly talk to them. You can provide a space for them, you know, to communicate with each other because that's a huge resource, right? That's a huge resource you can tap into when you are building out the roadmap for your product. It's a huge resource when you can tap out into when you launch online events and you can reach out to them so they can participate in those events, not only as audience but also as speakers, right? They can help you. If you have audience all over the world, they can help you with launching campaigns internationally. So, those are, like, little things to mention that we did with our audience.

Will: Yeah. That's good info. That's very interesting. Do you know what? Because you work in Silicon Valley as a marketer, you know, I'd love to know. Tell me what life's like as a marketer there.

Anna: Interesting. It's good. You should come and visit. I think the reason why I really love being here is because you tend to connect with so many interesting people. Like, you would go to get your coffee and you would see, like, someone talking about launching their new startup, someone else is talking about closing their startup and launching again a new one. And the ideas are everywhere. There are a ton of events, you know, for people to network, for people to learn, people to grow. And it's a really fun environment to be at. On the other side, life becomes blinded, short blinded in terms of you think that that's what's happening everywhere. And it's, like, it's very easy to forget your simple pleasures and grateful to be, like, simple things. And that's what I'm trying to constantly remind myself of. It's, like, I'm thankful for, you know, having this delicious coffee, versus it's, like, what's the next thing? What's the next startup.

Will: Yeah, I get that. Is it quite, I mean, is it quite high pressure? Is it long hours?

Anna: It's long hours, high pressure. But I guess since there are a ton of different startups and companies and you can choose, you know, where you really want to work and spend your hours with, it's not that hard, right? Because, like, you tend, at least I'm talking from my perspective, I tend to choose companies where I'm really excited at. And then these hours become not that heavy.

Will: Yeah. Of course, if you enjoy what you do for work, then it's not like a chore, right?

Anna: Exactly. But then also, yeah, one thing to add, a lot of companies really value, you know, work-life balance. And I honestly don't work over the weekends. So the weekends is all for, you know, sunny California hikes to enjoy and spend time with the family.

Will: What's the experience of being a woman working in Silicon Valley? And how is that talked about and perceived as an experience there?

Anna: Yeah. Maybe I'm going to answer it not in the way you would want to hear it. So I don't have any stories, you know?

Will: No, I'm not looking for anything sensational.

Anna: That I would tell yo is like, oh my God, it's so hard, you know, to be a woman here in Silicon Valley.

Will: Well, that's good.

Anna: Yeah. Maybe I am super lucky. And all the companies I worked at, all the companies I consulted, treated me fairly and I never felt, you know, that I'm a woman and that's why, you know, I get the salary or that's why I'm approached that way. So, it's definitely, not the case. I feel like here in Silicon Valley people are trying, you know, to get past that. And it's maybe on the other side, you know, of the equation where sometimes I don't feel like I'm woman, like, at work. Like, no one can actually tell me it's like, "Oh, like you look beautiful today," for example because that's not the right thing to do. Or, especially coming from, like, Europe, Eastern Europe it was definitely different, but I feel really, you know, happy and good being here.

Will: That's great.

Anna: So, I feel like a lot of women spend a lot of time building, you know, the environment we all can enjoy right now.

Will: That's a very nice thought. You're right. All that good environment is on the back of a lot of people having to go through a lot of difficulty I think.

Anna: Exactly.

Will: Cool. Okay. So, tell me a bit about how you actually got into marketing in the first place.

Anna: When I got out of college, I focused solely on entrepreneurship. So, I was part of my family business. Then I launched a series of from-the-table groceries, but then I had to leave all of it since I moved to the United States. And once I moved here, I figured out of all the things I did, I enjoyed marketing the most, you know, marketing my business, marketing my family business. And I started learning more how marketing is done here in Silicon Valley. So, I signed up for some of the courses and I also started doing a lot of, you know, internships. And the cool thing that I learned here is if you're really passionate about something and you learn a lot, you listen to podcasts, you take a lot of classes, very often you would end up being, you know, the smartest person in the room because you just went through this latest, you know, digital marketing course and you know the latest tactics. And I appreciate marketing for that because I don't think that marketing requires a lot of experience. It definitely does, but it also requires a lot of enthusiasm in learning new stuff and learning new skills. And if you have this attitude, then you'd always grow and grow very, very fast.

Will: So, you are part self-taught and part institution-taught because you did a couple of courses there in California.

Anna: Yeah. Institution-taught, but then it's also, you know, when you go through the course, but then you end up being in a room when your boss comes to you and says like, "Hey, and by the way, I know that you normally don't do this, but we don't have folks in the office. Can you launch this landing page?" And you have two seconds to decide, like, you've never done this before, can you, or can you not? And then you say yes and Google it, how to build landing pages on WordPress. So, it's a lot of stuff like that, which is very fun. But then once you do that, you learn fast and then you grow very fast.

Will: Yeah. That's good. That's good advice. Anna, look, thank you so much for all your insight and advice. The time has flown by and I know we need to let you go. Just one more question for you. Tell our listeners where they can find and connect with you online.

Anna: Yeah. First of all, they can find me on LinkedIn as Anna Tutckaia. You can find the way to spell my last name in the notes, I'm sure.

Will: We'll link to that.

Anna: Yeah. And listen, reach out to me if you have questions, if you need any sort of advice, I'm here for you, happy to do that.

Will: Great. Well, Anna, thanks so much for your time and hope to chat to you again soon.

Anna: Thank you so much, Will, for having me. It's an honor.

Will: If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And for more information about transforming your marketing career through certified online training, head to digitalmarketinginstitute.com. Thanks for listening.

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Will Francis

Will Francis is a recognized authority in digital and social media, who has worked with some of the world’s most loved brands. He is the host and technical producer of the DMI podcast, Ahead of the Game and a lecturer and subject matter expert with the DMI. He appears in the media and at conferences whilst offering his own expert-led digital marketing courses where he shares his experience gained working within a social network, a global ad agency, and more recently his own digital agency.

Connect with him on Twitter (X) or LinkedIn.